Émeutes de Québec de 1918 - Témoignage du Major George Gooderham Mitchell
ON THE THIRTEENTH DAY OF APRIL, 1918.
Témoignage du Major George Gooderham Mitchell[1]
GEORGE GOODERHAM MITCHELL, of the City of Toronto, in the Province of Ontario, Major, aged 39 years, being duly sworn upon the Holy Evangelists, doth depose end say :-
THE CORONER : When did you arrive with your regiment, battalion ?
A. I left — I am not sure of the dates.
Q. Only the day you arrived here ?
A. A week ago Sunday at about four o’clock in the afternoon.
Q. 31st of March ?
A. 31st of March at about four o’clock, that was Sunday afternoon.
Q. On Monday evening, the first of April, you were in charge of a certain number of soldiers at the corner of St. Valier Street, St. Joseph Street and Bagot Street, were you not ?
A. At what hour ?
Q. From say ten to twelve. You might tell the jury what you did that night, which would be the same thing, if you remember where it was. Here is St. Joseph Street, there Jacques Cartier Market and St. Valier Street and Bagot Street ?
A. Yes, I have got them.
Q. MR. BARCLAY: There is the cabstand there.
A. Then the Boulevard Langelier is there — here, is it not ?
THE CORONER : Yes, right here.
WITNESS: On the evening of Monday I was with Major Rodgers at the Merger Building, that is, the early part of the evening. Some time later, I should say it must have been ten o’clock or later a message was received at the Merger Building that our troops were being fired on in the neighborhood of the Boulevard. Major Rodgers who was in command instructed me to go up and see what the trouble was taking with me if possible a machine gun. I left the Merger Building and proceeded along Joseph Street in the direction of the Boulevard. When I reached the corner of the Boulevard end Joseph Street our troops were being fired on.
Q. Where at the corner ?
A. At the corner of Joseph and the Boulevard.
MR. BARCLAY : Were you fired on before you got to that corner ?
A. Of Joseph and the Boulevard ?
Q. Yes.
A. No sir.
THE CORONER : Can you tell me if it was with rifles or with revolvers, do you know, can you tell ?
A. I should say revolvers.
Q. Were some of them wounded at the time ?
A. The message that I got was that our troops had been fired on and that a couple had been wounded. That is the message I got before being sent by Major Rodgers from the Merger Building. As I say when we got to the Boulevard, they were fired on, while I was there. I then continued along St. Joseph Street. At the Boulevard there is a sort of triangular place there, if looks like a snowpile ; on the street, on the further side of that triangular block — I was standing there — there was a machine gun placed there while I was speaking to them at that corner.
Q. That is, at this corner ?
A. No, it is out here. Here is the Boulevard, there is a little square here and then another street running up towards the cliff. While talking …
Q. There was a machine gun, you say ?
A. There was a machine gun there. While talking to that crew we were again fired at from higher up the street. I gave them instructions to do nothing, just stand there till further orders. From there I proceeded on till we came to the corner where the shooting eventually occurred. When I got up to that corner there were very few troops there and there appeared to be two crowds. I can show you I think this corner.
MR. BARCLAY : Corner of Sauvageau and St. Joseph ?
A. I had the impression that this street was straighter than that.
Q. THE CORONER : It makes a curve. It is the continuation on St. Valier Street.
ME. BARCLAY : At the corner of St. Joseph Street.
THE CORONER : At that corner, that is, at the end of the Street, St. Joseph Street.
WITNESS : Well, when I arrived at the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets very few troops were there. Straight along this street, Laviolette Street, at this corner (I know none of these streets) after leaving (if these are correct) on this corner there was trouble, corner of St. Valier and Laviolette Streets.
Q. You saw some policemen over there ?
A. Yes, there were I think four or five policemen there. Leaving the troops at this corner (St. Joseph and Valier Streets) I proceeded. Having them station themselves there I walked myself up to the corner of Valier and Laviolette by the crowd. I walked up there myself and tried as best I could to get them to disperse.
Q. Alone ? You were alone ?
A. I was alone.
Q. Did you speak to the policemen over there ?
A. I did, yes and also to the crowd generally. There I received nothing but hoots and, when I turned around to return, bits of ice and different missiles. I then returned to the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets and took no further action. I took my time and figured up what it was best to do. This was only a matter of a few minutes when reinforcements I noticed (some further supports) were moving up in our direction along St. Joseph Street.
Q. Some other troops, you mean ?
A. Some further troops, yes, up St. Joseph Street. This is St. Joseph Street that the Merger is on. The reason for my hesitating was that with the small number of men I had, having the crowd …
Q. How many, what do you call a small number ; how many had you altogether before the arrival of these reinforcements ?
A. I should say there would be half a platoon or in that neighborhood.
MR. BARCLAY : How many is that ?
A. Roughly twenty to twenty-five. Owing to the crowd being on our left flank and also …
Q. THE CORONER : Where is that left flank ? Were the men on the left flank ?
A. Up this street.
Q. Up Bagot lane ?
A. Up that lane, is it not, there. This is a lane.
Q. St. Felixine ?
A. These people were up here, up Bagot Street.
Q. Whereabouts ?
A. Well, the exact distance I dont know. I was just going to say owing to the fog it was hard to tell what was there and it was also hard to judge distances.
MR. LAVERGNE : What lane do you speak of ?
A. This lane to the left.
THE CORONER : Not a lane, a wide street.
A. I had the impression that was a vacant lot on the corner there.
Q. I think you make a mistake.
A. It is a vacant lot. That is quite a narrow street. And this stands …
Q. That is the one you mean : St. Felixine ; this is a lane ?
A. No. That is the street I mean and it is a narrow street, Bagot.
Q. It is a wide street.
A. It may be shown wide.
Q. It is not shown, it is. I dont discuss what it is. But I know it is a wide street. You were under the impression that it was a narrow street ?
A. It was a reasonably narrow street and this is what appears to be a vacant lot with a bill board along at the back.
Q. That is the street.
A. That is what I was referring to by our left flank.
MR. BARCLAY : You mean up Bagot Street.
A. When the reinforcements I mentioned as coming up St. Joseph Street arrived …
THE CORONER : How many men ?
A. In the neighborhood of thirty I should think.
Q. Those are all the soldiers that were there that night ?
A. No. These were reinforcements sent forward to our place.
Q. You said you had only 25, and 30, that is only 55 altogether ?
A. That is about it.
Q. There were only 55 at the corner on that night ?
A. At that time.
Q. At ten o’clock ?
A. Yes.
Q. You swear there were about 55 men ?
A. I said approximately that number. I did not count them. They were not as I say under my command, these troops. I was sent up. These numbers are numbers that I give. When I say about 30, that is the impression I at the time got the men were sent up. I was sent up prior to that to size up the situation. The number of troops that appeared to be there were as stated. When these reinforcements reached the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets I gave them instructions to first clear the street on our left.
Q. Bagot Street ?
A. That is, Bagot Street. It was while in the act of doing this that the soldiers, to the best of my knowledge, opened fire, that is, in my presence.
Q. Who gave them orders to fire ?
A. The actual fire order ?
Q. Yes, at that time ?
A. I dont know who gave the …
Q. You say, to the best of your knowledge, it was at that time that the soldiers began to fire ?
A. Yes. While I was there no firing …
Q. Took place before that ?
A. … no firing had occurred in my presence up to that time.
Q. Who gave them orders to fire at that time, do you know ?
A. The actual order to open fire ?
Q. Yes.
A. I don’t know, sir.
Q. You don’t know. Do you know if the Riot Act was read before ?
A. Do I know ?
Q. If the Riot Act had been read before opening fire at that place, at that spot ?
A. It had not been read, to my knowledge.
Q. What happened after that ?
A. After fire had been opened following the… On the troops extending across this street to clear the street they were fired on by the crowd up Bagot Street.
Q. Bagot or this street or this one ?
A. Up by this street ; they were proceeding up that street to clear it up when they were fired on by the crowd apparently up at this next corner, corner of Demers and Bagot.
Q. MR. BARCLAY : How did they extend, Major ?
A. They came up St. Joseph Street, they came up St. Valier Street. They came up St. Joseph Street and, as they came up here, corner of St. Joseph and St. Valier Streets, in file, simply were turned to the left when they proceeded, simply a case of turning to the left and they carried one
Q. Did you see the sergeant that was hit ?
A. I did.
Q. Where was he hit ?
A. The man that was hit in the jaw do you mean ?
Q. The man that was hit in the jaw.
A. I was under the impression the first time I saw him was — I think it was just about here, at the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets. He was then with, I think it was one of the officers ; as I recollect the occurrence it was just at that corner on the sidewalk.
Q. Was he hit before or after the soldiers fired ?
THE CORONER : Will you go on, Major, and say what you know happened after that until the end ; we wont interrupt you any more.
A. That is a good deal to cover.
Q. No, it is not ; what happened ; how long they fired, and when they ceased fire and what happened, the casualties that happened ?
A. The moment they opened fire, as soon as I heard the fire opened I got to one side of them and ordered them to cease fire.
Q. Where were you standing at the time ?
A. I was, I came over, I was by this side by the stand, I was on the corner by the cabstand, the troops at that time being across just about this line, from the cabstand crossing the street. I ordered them to cease fire immediately.
Q. You say, Major, that the troops were standing at that time from the corner of that cabstand across the street ?
A. They were not standing ; they were ordered to move up that street and clear the street under my directions and they were at a point about opposite the cabstand when fire was opened on them from the crowd and they immediately replied.
Q. The crowd on Bagot Street ?
A. The crowd up Bagot Street.
Q. To the intersection of Demers Street, that is Demers Street ?
A. That is the intersection, yes sir, soldiers replying with fire.
Q. And it is then that you told them to cease fire ?
A. I immediately got on their right flank.
Q. Near the stand, the cabstand ?
A. Near the stand and ordered them to cease fire both by word of mouth and signalling.
Q. Both by word of mouth end signalling ?
A. Word of mouth and signalling. I was just on their right flank. I was holding my hand up and calling on them to cease fire. At that moment, it was just at that time that Major Rodgers, who was to have followed me up, arrived, just following that firing. As he arrived there at the scene at the corner of Bagot and St. Valier Street I reported to him what had occurred and taking a file of men with me I proceeded up Bagot Street towards the intersection of Demers Street.
Q. Did you go further than the crossing or did you stay there ?
A. A couple of men that were there were just past the corner, if I remember right that is the spot, they were there, corner of St. Felixine lane.
Q. That is the best way to understand it.
A. The opposite corner.
Q. Did you see at that time somebody dead or wounded there at that corner ?
A. At that time there were two men on the ground, one wounded and the other …
Q. Dead ?
A. I think dead.
Q. Did you see any priests over there at the time ?
A. Later in the evening I saw and had a conversation with a priest. At that time I simply went out to see if there was anything that we could do and did what we could to …
Q. Was there any firing after that ?
A. There was no firing after that up that street. Following my inspection at this corner, Bagot and Demers, we posted a group of sentries up the next corner, Sauvageau end Bagot Streets and in that direction I encountered no further difficulties.
Q. Do you know if from that corner of Sauvageau and Bagot Street soldiers fired from that place or not ?
A. I heard no firing there and I dont think I was far enough away to have missed it if firing had taken place.
Q. At that time after you left the cabstand after having said to cease fire …
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see a big crowd again after that or any crowd at all on the streets, Valier, St. Joseph or Bagot Streets ?
A. After my ordering the troops to cease fire, as I say, I proceeded on up to this street, Bagot Street …
Q. Towards Demers Street.
A. At that time there was no crowd in that direction. They had dispersed. And it was not for some time after that that I again returned to St. Joseph Street.
Q. There was nobody ?
A. I was in other words paying attention to our left flank.
Q. The fact is, as much as you can remember, after that there was no crowd at all in any street, you did not see any ?
A. To our left, no sir.
JUROR LESAGE : Were you the officer who gave the order to the soldiers to fire ?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. I would like to know if you have ordered the soldiers to open fire ?
A. If I gave the order ?
Q. Yes.
A. I did not give any actual order to open fire. I did give the troops an order to clear that street.
Q. Had any other officer the right to order them to fire or were you the only one to give them orders to fire ?
A. Any officer in charge, the officer in charge of these men would be at liberty to, in carrying out my intructions, to use his judgment in matters of that sort. Under the circumstances I consider that the troops were quite justified in replying to the fire as they did.
Q. I would like to know the name of the officer that ordered them, that gave the order to fire, that permitted them to fire ?
A. As I just stated before …
Q. Were there some other officers ?
A. There were other officers there.
Q. Would you give the name of the officer that gave the order to fire, that permitted the soldiers to fire ?
A. I cannot give the name of the officer who gave the order to fire as I did not hear the order given.
Q. And he had the right to give it without your consent, without your giving the order ?
A. He would under ordinary military conditions be at liberty without receiving orders from me to carry out certain instructions : from the time that these instructions are issued and received by another officer I would consider that officer justified in carrying on to the best of his judgment.
Q. Had you any soldiers wounded at that place where you were ?
A. Had we any wounded at that place ?
Q. Yes.
A. One sergeant was wounded in that locality before the troops did any shooting ; two others — as I stated in my evidence the message that took me up there was a message received by Major Rodgers at the Merger Building to the effect that our troops were being fired on and a couple of them had been hit, that is earlier in the evening before I proceeded to the scene at all.
Q. Now, as being in command of the fifty to sixty men that were at that place had you been given a copy of the Riot Act and orders to read it before shooting ?
A. I was in command of these troops that happened to be at that corner simply by virtue of my being the senior officer present. These troops did not accompany me. I went and, as I stated before, some of these troops were there, others came up later. I exercised my authority as the senior officer present at that time.
Q. Had you a copy of the Riot Act in your pocket ?
A. In my pocket ?
Q. Yes. Had anybody given you a copy of the Riot Act ?
A. No sir.
Q. Is it to your knowledge that the officers that were there had a copy of that Riot Act ?
A. I dont know whether the other officers had or had not. I had not.
JUROR MONAGHAN : Were you present when the shots were fired towards Bagot Street, were you present there ?
A. At this point that we are talking about I was present before the firing occurred.
Q. Were these shots directed towards the crowd of rioters or supposed rioters ? Were the shots directed towards Bagot Street, were they aimed at the crowd or at individuals that were wandering away from the crowd ?
A. I cannot answer as to every individual shot that was fired, where it was aimed at. The general direction was naturally, the objective was the mob that was up there and had been firing at us.
Q. Do you mean to say that they fired straight into the mob ?
A. I would say that they used a good deal of judgment in that matter or there would have been very many more casualties than were reported.
Q. The two young men that were killed, it appears that very few were on the street at the time ?
A. I would say there were quite a number ; I can give no estimate as to the number. As I stated before the fog was quite thick at that time, the street even at the next corner was indefinite. I can give no estimate at all. It was not a case of these two men being the only men on the street and being hit, I should think a very large number made away on fire being opened.
Q. The reason I ask you that is this : we had evidence given us yesterday that when the clergyman attended these two men that were stricken down there was no one around, few or none around in the direction ?
A. When I first went up to that comer where these man were that clergyman was not there ; the crowd had dispersed from there before I went up ; when I got there they had gone. It was some time after that that the minister appeared on the scene. I think he will recollect.
Q. And the crowd had been dispersed ?
A. And the crowd had dispersed quite a time before the minister — before I became aware of the presence of the minister. I was there before he was there and I think he will recollect my having gone to the door of the house where that wounded man was and inquiring as to his injuries.
Q. Were the shots fired from the machine gun or from rifles ?
A. The shots that I have been speaking about were fired from rifles.
Q. And aimed high or low, can you tell ?
A. As I say I cannot answer as to the aim the men take or took at that time ; but I should say they displayed considerable judgment in carrying out the work as they did.
JUROR LEVASSEUR : You said that the shooting had been done towards Bagot Street ?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. You said that the shooting had been done towards Bagot Street ?
A. Towards ?
Q. Yes.
A. It was up Bagot.
Q. In what direction ?
A. It was up Bagot Street, the shooting by the soldiers.
Q. That is ?
A. The soldiers shot up Bagot Street in reply to shots fired by the mob previous to that down Bagot Street.
Q. The only question I want to ask you is, how, if the men shot towards Bagot or up Bagot Street, you state that one man was killed on St. Joseph Street ?
A. One man killed on St. Joseph Street ?
Q. Yes, off Valier Street.
A. Wait till I get located. I did not hear of a man being killed up St. Valier Street. I heard that one man had been hit in the leg up that street. It was not …
THE CORONER : The man hit on the leg on Valier Street ?
A. This is the street he was hit on.
Q. You never heard of that one that was killed right here on St. Valier Street beyond Laviolette Street, a little further up ?
A. This is the first I have ever heard of a man being killed up in that direction.
Q. That is the first one that was killed ?
A. No sir, I should doubt that. No shooting took place by the military until the shooting I refer to, which was up Bagot Street, and that man was killed at that time. Previous to that no shooting had occurred on St. Valier Street.
Q. I say that because I was telephoned for this one first and a few minutes after for the other one ?
A. If that man was shot up there, he was shot by others, that man ; no shooting had taken place in that direction up to that time.
Q. I dont know what time I was informed for the first one ; the first one I was informed, that is all.
A. He may be the first one.
MR. BARCLAY : If he was killed at first it could not have been by the soldiers ?
A. It was not by men of our command, of our troops there.
EXAMINED BY MR. LAVERGNE.
Q. To what regiment do you belong ?
A. Do I belong to at present ?
Q. Yes, at present ?
A. I am on the strength of the general staff ; General Staff Officer of the M. D. 2.
Q. That in in Kingston ?
A. In Toronto.
Q. You might tell us how you came to command a force here, a regiment, though holding a staff appointment in M. D. 2 ?
MR. BARCLAY : Just a minute. I dont know who Mr. Lavergne represents.
THE CORONER : He represents Demeule.
MR. BARCLAY : That is not in the interest of his client, why a staff officer was put in command ; it has nothing to do with this case. The military authorities could place anybody. It does not do any harm.
WITNESS : I have no explanation, to explain it.
MR. BARCLAY : There is nothing to it, but it is a waste of time. You may be paid for this, I am not.
MR. LAVERGNE : I am not paid for it, not as much as you are. I am not paid of all.
MR. BARCLAY : You are doing a lot of work for nothing.
MR. LAVERGNE : Q. Anyway you were in charge of a company of the Centre Ontario Regiment ?
A. I was sent down in command of a number of troops, not of any one regiment, there were a number of troops there : one of the depot battalions, a number of the army medical corps, a few of the army service corps and some of the mounted troops.
Q. Who were sent here for this ?
A. They were sent on that train and I was in command of these troops which came down on that train.
Q. I see by your chevrons also that you have been at the Front ?
A. I have been at the Front, yes.
Q. You arrived here on the 31st of March about one o’clock in the afternoon ?
A. I left Toronto on Saturday afternoon and arrived here I think at five minutes past four on Sunday.
Q. Before you were ordered down to St. Roch you were put here in command of Major Rodgers ?
A. On which date are you referring to ?
Q. On Sunday when you came here ?
A. On Sunday ?
Q. Where were you barracked ?
A. The troops that came with me with the exception of the dragoons were stationed at the Clearing Depot.
Q. That is on the Louise Embankment ?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you stationed there yourself ?
A. I was stationed and lived there myself during my stay here.
Q. And it is there that you got the order to proceed to St. Roch with a certain force ?
A. On Sunday or Monday ?
Q. On Monday.
A. I got no order to proceed to St. Roch with a certain force.
Q. You might tell us what order you got on Monday ?
A. Orders ? We received these orders. I have copies of them if you wish to see them. I cannot pretend at this late date to recall them.
Q. They were produced by Major Rodgers here, practically the same thing ?
A. These were the orders we received. These orders were carried out and I reported personally to Major Rodgers. It was at my own suggestion that the detachment be treated as a unit under Major Rodgers. I stated at the time that I knew of no one from whom I would sooner - under whom I would sooner work than Major Rodgers.
Q. I think we all agree on that point. You got also verbal orders, did you not, before leaving with the force on hand ; were not the officers called up to receive verbal orders from Major Rodgers ?
A. Verbal orders …
Q. Supplementing the written orders ?
A. … are continually being received. They are received every time a senior officer speaks to a junior. It practically means they always are in receipt of verbal orders. As I stated in my evidence I was instructed on that evening in question to proceed to the neighborhood of the Boulevard to be followed later by Major Rodgers. That was a verbal order.
Q. I am not talking of that. Before you left the barracks were not the officers supplemented with certain verbal orders confirming or adding to the written orders ?
A. That is invariably done whenever there are verbal instructions. I think on this occasion we also - I had written instructions detailing the various parties.
Q. Would you mind telling the Jury what were these verbal orders as far as the work you had to carry out that night ?
A. As I say any orders that were issued were simply in the form of a conversation between myself as senior officer and other junior officers.
Q. Would you mind telling what you told them ?
A. I cannot recollect in the slightest what conversation took place prior to our starting out on our various duties.
Q. You have had a considerable military experience ?
A. Spread over a limited number of years, yes.
Q. Have you been required to render aid to the civil power before ?
A. Have I ?
Q. Yes.
A. I have not.
Q. Do you know whether there was any civil magistrate with your detachment under whose orders you were to be that night accompanying you ?
A. Under whose orders we were to be ? I did not hear of him.
Q. There was none ?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Do you know if there was any civil magistrate accompanying every detachment of your force or any officer commanding any detachment of your force on that night ?
A. I can hardly understand what you mean, sir.
Q. Well, I mean, I am referring to the King’s Regulations which say that troops when called out in aid of civil power, the force and every detachment thereof must be accompanied by a civil magistrate under whose orders that troop or detachment is. I want to know if that was done ?
A. Our various detachments proceeded out on duty that evening under instructions received from my superior officers.
Q. Oh yes, it is not a blame ; I would not like you to take it that way.
A. These are the only orders that I received and I proceeded to carry then out in the way …
Q. Quite so ; but you had no orders to be accompanied by a civil magistrate ?
A. No.
Q. Nor any of your detachments to be accompanied by a civil magistrate. There were no orders to that effect ?
A. My detachments, unless they received orders which did not come through me, were — they did not receive instructions from me along these lines. This is the first suggestion …
Q. Were you present at the distribution of the rounds of cartridges ?
A. Present at the distribution ?
Q. Yes, to the men ?
A. That is, the original distribution ?
Q. Yes.
A. I was present during part of that tine, a very small part of that time. That work was delegated by me to one of my officers who acted and is acting as quartermaster.
Q. His name ?
A. McDonald. I am not sure of his name.
Q. The quartermaster ?
A. He is acting as quartermaster of the detachment at the clearing station.
A. Do you know if the pouches were inspected before the men received their rounds ?
A. The pouches inspected ?
Q. Yes.
A. What date are you referring to ?
Q. Monday, all the time Monday ?
A. I dont think the issue of ammunition was made on Monday at all.
Q. When was it made, on Sunday ?
A. It was made partly coming down in the train and completed here. That ammunition was not distributed and called in every time we were called out of these quarters. When we were wanted we were wanted in a hurry.
Q. The ammunition was distributed on the train ?
A. Some of if was on the train. The issue completed …
Q. Where was that ammunition got from ?
A. It was handed to me, it was delivered to the train and put in my charge by the senior ordnance officer in Toronto.
Q. You were present when the boxes were opened ?
A. I was present when the first boxes were opened. I inspected them all before they were opened and counted every box.
Q. On Monday you then proceeded to Jacques Cartier Square first, the whole force ?
A. Monday evening ?
Q. Monday evening.
A. A certain distribution of troops was made. I can produce the orders and show the exact distribution.
Q. We have got that. Major Rodgers gave us that.
A. I acting in command did not actually march at the head of these troops. I proceeded after the troops had been properly detailed for their duties to the Merger Building.
Q. You were second in command ?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. You were second in command that night ?
A. I was acting in conjunction with Major Rodgers taking instructions from Major Rodgers ; as I stated before, I requested that that should be the arrangement.
Q. And it was at Major Rodgers request that you left the Merger Building or thereabouts to move out towards the Boulevard ?
A. It was.
Q. Went up alone ?
A. No, I was accompanied by my adjutant.
Q. Give us his name ?
A. Captain Hind.
Q. No men, no non-com’s or no men, no detachment of any kind ?
A. No, we started out alone ; I think we finished up that way. As I say we stopped at these various posts and made inquiries as to the conditions.
Q. By that time I suppose St. Joseph Street had practically been cleared ?
A. Up to the point referred to.
Q. Yes, up to that point, the Market Square and the streets were practically clear up to that point ?
A. The Market Square is what ?
Q. I mean Jacques Cartier Square ?
A. Jacques Cartier Square. There was no great throng there. There were people there who …
Q. … had been dispersed ?
A. … who did not stand around ; they kept moving. There were people there but not sufficient to cause any great congestion.
Q. You got to the corner of the Boulevard. And how many officers and men did you find there ?
A. At the corner of the Boulevard ?
Q. Yes.
A. When I got to the Boulevard. As I stated before I did not make a practise of counting the actual number of men there.
Q. Approximately, gross figures ?
A. Simply sufficient to let them — that corner they were distributed right along the … they were extending from the corner of … they were extending along the Boulevard to the other side of St. Joseph Street. How many troops were there I could not say. Quite sufficient.
Q. A rough guess ?
A. No, I am not in a position, as I say, just at one point to make even a guess.
Q. No shooting took place there ?
A. Yes, there was shooting there.
Q. By the rioters ?
A. Yes.
Q. On your men ?
A. Yes.
Q. You then proceeded to clear Bagot Street ?
A. No, we then proceeded up St. Joseph Street to Bagot Street.
Q. Your men did not retaliate there ?
A. At the Boulevard ?
Q. Yes, at the Boulevard ?
A. There was no firing while I was there. As I say I simply lingered there a few minutes.
Q. Had you heard shots, firing before ?
A. I had heard firing an we were going up.
Q. Revolver shots or rifles or machine gun ?
A. I heard no machine gun. And it was at such a distance that I could not pretend even to say whether it was a rifle or a revolver shot that you hear in the distance. When I got out to the Boulevard there were revolver shots then there and close to my own position.
Q. Did you or Major Rodgers designate any officer for every detachment used that night which was to command fire ?
A. Which was to ?
Q. Command fire. And did you warn the men that that officer alone had the power to command fire ?
A. You could not designate an officer, you could not designate any one officer. For instance, a couple of bodies of troops might come together, I might be by order of seniority senior there, and some one designated that they could take orders only from. So it is against all reason that that should be done.
Q. I don’t know. You are aware of the paragraph.
A. Outside of that, orders are laid down in my own orders which perhaps you have not seen.
Q. No.
A. Specified from time to time. And I invariably draw their attention to the fact that troops would receive the fire only on the instructions of an officer, but you cannot specify any particular officer for duties of that sort : he might have been the one that was hit.
Q. I dont know ; I did not make the law. You are aware this is not warfare ; this is by civil power. Will you allow me to refresh your memory, with all due respect. Paragraph 752 of the King’s Regulations says : If there are more officers than one with the detachment, and it is necessary for more than one section to fire at a time, the Officer Commanding will clearly indicate to the troops what officer is to order any of the sections to fire. No person, except the officer indicated by the Commanding Officer, is to give orders to any file or section to fire ?
A. There was no vast number of troops there and there was no section to my knowledge with more than one officer in charge of it. This was just one section working and there was but one officer with me with that section. I should hardly judge it necessary to read that particular paragraph to the party before starting them on their work.
Q. That is not blame particularly. I am asking you to state if your own troops were not warned and you officers were not instructed either that a civil magistrate was to tell you when to fire and that you were not to fire before ? There was nothing in that connection in your orders or in your instructions, in those given to you or …
A. Orders given to me ?
Q. To you or to Major Rodgers or any of the officers ?
A. That I had to wait under instructed by a magistrate ?
Q. Yes.
Q. To protect those under me, no sir.
Q. You saw at the corner of the Boulevard a crowd ?
A. At the corner of the Boulevard ?
Q. And St. Joseph Street ?
A. I referred to no crowd at the corner of the Boulevard and St. Joseph Street.
Q. There had been some shooting ?
A. There had been some shooting.
Q. There war no crowd when you got there ?
A. No crowd ; still there was shooting, individual shots were being fired in my direction.
Q. You moved further up ?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. You moved further up with your troops ?
A. Further than the Boulevard ?
Q. Yes.
A. There were some troops stationed at the Boulevard who continued to carry on. There I proceeded, as I stated …
Q. You proceeded you say with your regiment ?
A. Proceeded with my adjutant, Captain Hind accompanied me. I proceeded up to the corner that we have been referring to, St. Joseph, St. Valier and Bagot.
Q. Was there a big crowd there ?
A. There were two crowds there.
Q. One on your left and one on your right ?
A. One on my left up Bagot and another which I stated some few minutes ego was at this corner, St. Valier Street and Laviolette Street.
Q. Would you mind telling how big a crowd, the one you saw from very close quarters, walked up to them ?
A. I saw them at reasonably close quarters.
Q. How big a crowd was there ?
A. I would not venture to say, quite a number ; there were more people there than I had, a good deal than I had soldiers at the time, a good many more. There were several policemen there who would probably be in a better position than I to give an estimate of the number there.
Q. The crowd on Bagot Street, would you tell us how big a crowd they were ?
A. As I stated before it was very indefinite, it was very foggy and even the first corner out was not clearly defined owing to the fog. There was not more than one or two …
Q. You then got reinforcements ?
A. Supports then moved up to our point.
Q. About thirty men ?
A. Roughly that number.
Q. No officer at that time read the Riot Act ?
A. In my presence ?
Q. In your presence.
A. No.
Q. No officer ?
A. No.
Q. The first warning that you were going to shoot to the crowd war when they got the shots ?
A. I would hardly say …
Q. I am asking you. I am not stating facts. I am asking the question.
A. I thought you were stating …
Q. No.
A. I went myself and asked this crowd at Laviolette Street to disperse. The crowd up Bagot Street were also warned to proceed.
Q. By whom ?
A. By various officers there myself included.
Q. What did you tell then ?
A. I simply gave them a general indication to move on. They knew perfectly well the conditions. They were continuously taunting us and making remarks to us and inviting us to come up and put them out in reply to our requests and orders that they disperse.
Q. Would you mind stating what words you used and in what language ?
A. It must have been in English. It is the only language I speak. What the exact words were I dont remember.
Q. Conversing in English ?
A. I indicated to the best of my ability that we desired them to disperse.
Q. Were they warned in French ?
A. I could not say even if they were warned, I would not be able to answer either because I would not know what was being said. I think the policemen would be able — there are several policemen that would be able to hear me out as to my addressing the crowd.
Q. Well, anyway while not knowing enough French to state whether they were warned or not …
A. … In French.
Q. … in French you knew enough to understand what the crowd was calling out to you ?
A. They were speaking English.
Q. They were ?
A. Yes, they made several remarks in English. As I stated they just taunted us…
MR. BARCLAY : They threw ice in both languages.
A. … that we come up and put them out ; that in reply to continued urging on our part to get them to move on. I tried to speak in as gentlemanly and persuasive a manner as I possibly could. As I say the reply was roaring and several lumps of ice and so on the moment I turned my back.
Q. Major Rodgers swore that every officer had been supplied with two copies of the Riot Act, one in French and one in English. You say you had none ?
A. I had none.
Q. Dont you think then that it would have been proper that this Riot Act, seeing how things were going, how badly the crowd was behaving, that this Riot Act should have been read ?
A. Is it necessary to read it before any action is taken in any part…
Q. Well, that is a thing on which we will not agree. I think so. You may say no.
MR. BARCLAY : The law says no.
MR. LAVERGNE : The law says yes.
MR. BARCLAY : It is a question of law.
MR. LAVERGNE : It is a question of law we wont agree on, you and I.
MR. BARCLAY : We don’t have to.
MR. LAVERGNE : Anyway let the witness answer. I dont know if he knows the law as well as you do.
Q. The question was, dont you think it was proper then that the Riot Act should have been read to that crowd seeing how badly that crowd was behaving ?
A. I think owing to the number of different crowds there were around that night, it would have taken a great deal of time to have…
Q. It is a very short Act ?
A. I have no knowledge of the Act, but…
Q. It takes about one minute or two to read it, not quite a minute.
A. Well, that is a point I know nothing of.
Q. It was not done ?
A. It was not done by me.
Q. Nor by anybody else to your knowledge ?
A. I know nothing about that. I am answering for myself.
Q. To your knowledge, you were there ?
A. To my knowledge it was not read by myself or any of those in my immediate vicinity ; it was not heard by me ; it may have occurred.
Q. Your troops were extended across Bagot Street and you ordered them to clear Bagot Street ?
A. Yes.
Q. These were your orders ?
A. Yes.
Q. They proceeded forward to Bagot Street ?
A. They did.
Q. Two deep ?
A. I should say mostly two deep.
Q. Were the rifles loaded at the time or had they been loaded before ?
A. They had been loaded, I presume they had been loaded before.
Q. Before ?
A. They must have been ; they were not my troops.
Q. Were the men warned, when they were going to shoot, not to shoot at passersby but at the crowd, at the rioters ?
A. At that particular corner had they been warned do you mean ?
Q. Were they at that point or — were they warned then ?
A. All of the troops under my charge had been warned and spoken to a number of times as to firing.
Q. Would you mind telling us what you told then ?
A. What I told them as to firing ?
Q. Yes.
A. I spoke several times, even coming down on the train, and several times after that. I explained to them on the train that they must use the greatest care while in Quebec. I warned them that they would probably not get as much cheering as they had at other times, but they were to remember that they were in a responsible position, that a great deal depended on the way they acted, and I asked them individually and collectively to bear in mind at all times they were to do nothing except on the instructions of those over them.
Q. Quite right. Are you quite satisfied that those troops that you met at the corner of Bagot Street and St. Valier Street were the same men as those you had spoken to on the train ?
A. I am thoroughly convinced that they were not my troops.
Q. They were not your troops ?
A. No.
MR. BARCLAY : He does not know what orders were given to them.
MR. LAVERGNE : Therefore, did you warn them, as you very wisely warned your own men on the train, at that time ?
A. When they arrived ?
Q. No, at the corner of St. Valier Street and Bagot Street, when they had orders to clear the street ?
A. The orders I gave were to the officer in charge of these men. I did not take hold individuality of these men and undertake the clearing up of that street myself.
Q. What was the name of the officer in charge of these men ?
A. I would not be sure on that point. He was not a member of my detachment.
Q. You cannot give us a vague idea ?
A. To the best of my belief that body of supports that moved up were members of the Engineers Depot and I have been informed, though I don’t know the officer even by sight, that Mr. Nighton was in command.
Q. Would you mind telling us what instructions you gave to him ?
A. I have already done that. I instructed him …
Q. I may be dense.
A. … to proceed to the left and clear up that street, indicating Bagot Street.
Q. That was all ?
A. Simply instructed him to clear up the street.
Q. Did he ask you whether he was to fire ?
A. Did he ask me ?
Q. Or use the bayonet, or just the butt of the gun ?
A. He asked me nothing ; carried out the instructions, proceeded to carry them out when, as I stated, they were fired on at that point and replied.
Q. How was the firing done, was it done by a volley, by the man standing up, kneeling down or lying in the streets at the word command ; tell us how you say it, how it happened ?
A. I should think it might be regarded as individual firing’
Q. Individual firing. How many shots were fired ?
A. I am in no position to say that. I had other things to think of. I was not … As soon as they started, as I say, I proceeded immediately to order them to cease fire.
Q. Was there a machine gun used ?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. Was there a machine gun used ?
A. There was no machine gun there at that time.
Q. It was brought up after ?
A. It was brought up afterwards.
Q. Were you there when it was brought up ?
A. I was.
Q. Were you there when it was fired ?
A. At the corner ?
Q. Yes.
A. I was not. I did not see the gun fire, no.
Q. Did you hear it ?
A. I think I heard machine gun fire. At the time that that firing took place I was in the cabstand at the corner there and had to interrupt my conversation because I could not hear what was saying and remarked at the time that there was a machine gun there.
Q. Did you see or hear it fired afterwards ?
A. It was after this original firing that I say I was telephoning some time.
Q. I mean after the telephoning did you hear the machine gun again ?
A. I only heard what I thought a Lewis gun on one occasion.
Q. On one occasion ?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you come back to Major Rodgers afterwards to proceed further ?
A. It was just a case of stepping out of the door and Major Rodgers and I were both at that little intersection there.
Q. Did you stay there to the end of the trouble that night ?
A. I did. I was there and in that neighborhood. I went up Bagot Street. I had a conversation with a priest or a minister up there ; did what I could and covered that immediate neighborhood. I was there till we were withdrawn.
Q. Did you go back to the barracks with the troops ?
A. I am not sure on that point. I am not sure whether on that occasion I marched down with them or not ; some evenings I marched down ; others I would wait till they were assembled and they would proceed under the other officers when I would go down individually.
Q. You cannot tell us whether the use of the ammunition that night when the troops came back to the barracks was reported upon, pouches inspected and ammunition counted to see how many had been spent ?
A. I should not think that would have been done.
Q. You dont think it would have been done ?
A. As I say we dont call in and issue ammunition daily. And as I stated before they were not my troops that did the firing.
Q. When the orders were given to clear the street did you or the officer commanding that detachment warn the people that the troops were going to fire and that the firing would be effective ?
A. Warn them they were going to fire ?
Q. That the troops were going to fire and that the firing would be effective ?
A. I did not.
Q. Did the other officer, do you know ?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. One more question which is very important. You will answer as you think fit. When on the train you gave instructions to your men to be very careful and know that they were coming to Quebec and would not get as much cheering as they might have at other places, would you tell us, if you think you should, why you thought it necessary to give this warning ?
A. Why I thought it necessary ? Well, it was not altogether on my own initiative that I gave them instructions that they must carry on. I had received instructions from my superiors to be careful as to the carrying on of our troops : that we must use every consideration and remember ourselves on all occasions. It is natural that such instructions should be given end even if I did not receive these instructions to speak to them along these lines I would have done so on my own responsibility.
THE CORONER : Do you remember that night when you arrived at that spot at the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets, when you saw a crowd, if the policemen that were standing there to quieten the crowd asked you or your men to help them disperse the crowd or did you offer your services to help them without the firing of arms ?
A. When we arrived at this corner, at I say a small body of our troops were here, at the corner of Laviolette and St. Valier Streets, coming from St. Joseph Street to St. Valier Street. The police moved from the corner where the troops were up to Laviolette Street, seemed to move between those two points without being molested. At the time I first noticed them they were up immediately in front and to the side of the crowd that was up by Laviolette Street. They were there when I proceeded up there and spoke to the crowd and asked them to disperse. The crowd at Laviolette Street seemed to be an entirely different lot to those on Bagot Street. I decided that if there were nasty ones there that they would probably be in that crowd. At Laviolette Street it was reasonable light. These men from the remarks they were making (in Bagot Street) and the taunts they were throwing at us and the fact that they were up this (practically) side street, I think…
Q. They appeared to you more dangerous than the other one ?
A. It appeared to me that these were more likely than those (at Laviolette) to be the dangerous element. That is to say, I felt this more confirmed in my mind when on proceeding up that street that same crowd that I am speaking of on Bagot Street opened fire on the troops as they proceeded up.
And further deponent saith not.
I certify the foregoing to be a true and correct transcript of my shorthand notes.
- ↑ Titre ajouté par Wikisource pour fin de présentation.