BAnQ/Émeutes de Québec de 1918/Témoignage du Major George Robert Rodgers
Témoignage du Major George Robert Rodgers[1]
GEORGE ROBERT RODGERS, of Barrie, in the Province of Ontario, aged 36 years, Major in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, being duly sworn upon Holy Evangelists, doth depose and say :-
Q. What is your name ?
A. George Robert Rodgers.
Q. Your age ?
A. 36.
Q. From what place ?
A. Barrie, Ontario.
Q. What is your title in the militia ?
A. Major.
Q. Of the Canadian Militia ?
A. Of the Canadian Expeditionary Force.
Q. On Monday evening the first of April last you were in command of a battalion ?
A. Down in St. Rochs.
Q. Down in St. Rochs and St. Sauveur ?
A. And St. Sauveur, yes sir.
Q. Who gave you your orders ?
A. Col. O’Meara.
Q. Have you got a copy of these orders ?
A. I have.
Q. Will you produce it ?
A. Do you want me to read them ?
Q. Will you read it please to the Jury ?
A. Report number one just gives the strength of the different units. Royal Canadian Dragoons 100, Royal Canadian Engineers 400, Royal Canadian Regiment, Centre Ontario Regiment 580, Machine Gun Company 100, total 1180. Time and position : 6.30; distribution Main Body Jacques Cartier Square: Dragoons, Centre Ontario Regiment, Machine Gun Company 50. Reserves …
MR. LAVERGNE: Posted where ?
A. Jacques Cartier Square. Reserves Palais Station, Royal Canadian Engineers 400, Machine Gun 50. At 7.30 at Jacques Cartier; 4.50 at the Station. Major Rodgers to report to G.S.O. direct. Major Keiffer who was in command of the station to report to me or the G.S.O. Report to be made at least every half an hour. Telephone number, my number was 4750; Major Keiffer 663. I might say that we just took these telephones. We would just walk in and take them very much against some of their wills. Object: No crowd to be allowed to collect; must be dispersed; very sparing about shooting. Route: Centre Ontario Regiment will proceed by way of Côte d’Abraham; C.O.R by St. Andrews to St. Joseph; Royal Canadian Engineers the same. It is reported at 9 A.M. there will be a meeting on Jacques Cartier Square. Your instructions are that no meeting is to be taken; anyone disobeying if possible to be made prisoner; you will use no unnecessary force to obtain that and when it is to arrest someone. Signed J. S. O’Meara Lieutenant Colonel, G.S.O., Militia District Number 5.
THE CORONER: Can you produce a copy of these orders before the Inquest ?
A. Yes I can get a copy.
Q. A certified copy ?
A. Yes, I will get a certified copy.
Q. Will you tell the jury what you did that night from the very beginning to the end ?
A. Yes.
Q. Take your time and relate it as well as you can.
A. As far as I can remember I got word to go down there; I got very strict orders to avoid a clash if possible and if possible not to use any force, but to keep a mob from collecting. I went down. I spoke to the men before they went, gave them very strict orders. I issued the Riot Act to every officer both in English and French.
Q. Will you name these officers to whom you gave the Riot Act ?
A. To Captain Haighton, my adjutant, Major Good, Captain Rothry, Captain Williamson, Lieutenant Wymperley; and I also had a copy myself. I saw that …
Q. Lieutenant Girouard had a copy of it ?
A. Girouard?
Q. He was not there ?
A. He was not there. Most of the officers can talk French but to make sure we had an interpreter attached to every party. I spoke to the men.
Q. A soldier also ?
A. We have quite a few soldiers who can speak French; but I had French officers with me for interpreters and I had some French drill instructors. And I had been spoken to very strongly about avoiding a clash; if it was avoidable we were to avoid it. I spoke to the men at the time they went out and told them under no consideration were they to load their rifles until they got an order from a senior officer. I started out the Dragoons. The orders they had were just to see that no one congregated on the corners, that there was no mob congregated. They had no fire arms outside of the officers having their revolvers. And I started off small parties patrolling the streets, all under senior officers, with the same orders: under no consideration, if it could be avoided, to avoid a clash. I went around myself, visited them all. And we started - I should judge it would be a little after seven. The crowd was beginning to get quite a size. We kept the traffic going both ways; and about, I should judge, eight o’clock they began to congregate around Jacques Cartier Square. So I started the traffic up one side and down the other. That is, having them all go in the one way on the one side of the street. At that time there were two or three prisoners had been brought if for — caught throwing, some of hem had been caught throwing stones or bricks. That was about, I should judge, 8.30, between eight and eight thirty. One man in particular that I asked myself two or three times to move on would not. Well he was more than an individual, I did not bother with him. He was caught on the side street later throwing bricks in, brought in by one of the others. And I started Captain Rothry up the main street to move one. About 9.30 the Dragoons came in. I started the infantry off. I am not sure whether I was riding or walking, but Captain Rothry said — I want to move on — what will I do with this man? One man had been hit in the head with a brick.
MR. BARCLAY: One of the soldiers ?
A. One of the soldiers. He was about the first casuality. I said all right. Captain Rothry sent him back to the Merger Building where he got medical treatment. Went on up the street and just then they brought in another boy shot in the leg.
Q. A soldier again ?
A. A soldier. I might say here that we never had a man scratched or hit after we opened fire, there was not one person upon our side, and we had up to that time, minor ones and serious ones, up till about 30. They went up to the Boulevard. I went back to telephone to Headquarters. Things were going along very nice. We only had one fellow hit with a brick. When I came back out it was reported to me they were sniping from behind snowbanks and off the roof at the Boulevard. I went up there and it was somewhere between there and up the next street where the cabstand is Sergeant Johnstone was brought in with a shot in the jaw. I was between. I might say that Captain Haighton I know read the Riot Act that night. When I say read it he had learned it off as well as he could by heart. You all know it was very foggy that night; no man could read anything in the street and he gave it, to the best of my memory, word for word with the Riot Act in a loud clear voice.
THE CORONER: What time was it ?
A. That was about I should judge nine o’clock.
Q. When the Riot Act was read ?
A. Yes, between 9 and 9.30.
MR. LAVERGNE: Was he holding the paper in his hand ?
A. That I could not say.
JUROR LESAGE : In French or in English ?
A. Both, sir.
THE CORONER: Have you got a copy of that Riot Act ?
A. I don’t think I have one.
MR. LAVERGNE: The original ?
A. The original. Well, I had some given to me from headquarters and I got the stenographer to strike them off so that every officer would have two copies.
MR. PICHER: You have only a copy.
MR. BARCLAY: You have not got a copy with you here ?
MR. LAVERGNE: You have not a copy ?
A. No I don’t think.
Q. Nor the original ?
A. No; it is not important; either is original.
Q. Can you give us the reading …
A. No.
Q. Will you read it to me. Are you one of those who learned it by heart ?
A. I had an interpreter with me.
THE CORONER : Is that the same (Handing witness book) ?
A. Yes, this is the English. This is an exact copy.
Q. I want to ask you. You swear that this is the same thing that you read and gave a copy to your officers ?
A. Well, might be one word …
MR. LAVERGNE : I think this is the English edition.
THE CORONER : Yes, this is the English edition.
MR. LAVERGNE : You have the Canadian edition.
THE CORONER : Practically the same.
WITNESS : The substance of it is exactly the same. It has exactly the same substance. There might be a word there …
THE CORONER : It is the Canadian one you had then ?
A. It was copied out of that ; put on a sheet of paper ; had quite a few up with them. A copy taken out of that. Will I proceed ?
THE CORONER : You don’t understand French enough to say if it is a true copy ?
A. No I don’t.
Q. You can go on ?
A. I went down and when I got the Boulevard …
Q. What time was it ?
A. Oh it was — well I made a note or two, if you will let me use them.
MR. CHAPLEAU : You can use your notes.
THE CORONER: Oh surely.
A. About 10.30.
Q. When you got to the Boulevard ?
A. We were around the Boulevard. Then patrols and picket moved to Boulevard Langelier where civilians first opened with single shots. There was sniping from the roofs and over the snowbanks up towards the Hill; that is, south, I think.
Q. Do you know if they were firing, shooting with revolvers or guns ?
A. Well from the report I should say it was revolver.
Q. Many shots you heard there ?
A. Oh yes, there were quite a few.
Q. What do you mean by quite a few ?
A. I should say ten, fifteen.
Q. The Riot Act had been read at the time ?
A. Oh yes, much before that.
Q. And was it read again at the corner of St. Valier Street and St. Joseph Street ?
A. Oh I could not say definitely.
Q. You don’t know ?
A. They went on up a little further and when I was between the Boulevard some other troops had gone up while I went back to telephone. When I came back they had moved up to the corner of the cabstand and just as I came to the corner towards the Hill they had opened fire. I had heard quite a bit of firing before that and I went up. I immediately blew my whistle to cease firing, which they did practically at once. There were one or two firing; it was very foggy; you could not see more than I should judge the width of this room up there.
Q. About fifty feet, forty or fifty ?
A. No. You could, I should say, one hundred because I could see from the cabstand to the opposite corner where you know the plate glass are broken.
Q. Right here ?
A. Well, I don’t know. That distance is … There is the cabstand.
Q. Where is the cabstand ?
A. Here is St. Joseph Street. This is turned the wrong way.
Q. Your men were over there?
A. Yes, they were right here. I could see from the cabstand to there.
Q. Corner of Laviolette Street ?
A. Just to that corner. That is all I could see. I immediately walked up to the direction the firing had been in. One man was dead. I straightened out his limbs and put his hands over him, crossed his hands. Another man was shot through the abdomen.
Q. Where was that?
A. That was up here.
Q. Right here?
A. Yes, right here. There is a fence with a sign on there. It was right there.
Q. This fence right there?
A. Yes.
Q. The man was lying down at the corner of Bagot, St. Felixine and Demers Street?
MR. BARCLAY: It was at the intersection of these three streets ?
A. Yes, at the intersection of these three streets. The other man was shot through the abdomen.
The Coroner : Q. Right alongside of this man that was already dead?
A. Right alongside, it might have been five or ten feet away. All orders I ever got from the doctors over at the front were always to leave the man perfectly still that was hit at the abdomen.
Q. Was there a doctor there?
A. And get — I will just come to that — and get medical aid as soon as possible. I ran back to the cabstand, telephoned Headquarters that there had been some of them hit and to send down the police and our own ambulance with medical aid at once and I also sent over our doctor and the police ambulance. There was another one hurt who was taken into one of the houses there alongside. I did not see that man myself.
Q. He was a young boy ?
A. I heard he was a young boy. The interpreter that was there told me that he was a young boy ; they told me it was a young boy. I immediately telephoned to Headquarters to send down the ambulance. And I cleaned some of the men there around the corner, started them back that street, and there was some sniping right on in front of us. It looked to be two houses back, that is, right over the top of the cabstand. I picked out three or four sergeants and told them if there was any more, why to fire up at the roof, which they did. I saw them sniping there, our men firing up after there had been a shot. And I came back and looked up and I could not see anyone on account of the fog. They said you could just see the flash. And I went to telephone again to Headquarters, everything was quiet; but someone shoved their hand around the corner and part of the body and fire five shots from the time I was walking at the corner to telephone at the cabstand. They had brought a machine gun up.
MR. LAVERGNE : Shot at you?
A. Over that direction where the men were. I don’t think there were aimed shots. I think they were … they could not aim them on account of the fog. There was not an aimed shot I don’t think could be taken that night on account of the fog. They had brought a machine gun up to the corner. I told the sergeant on no account to start it without orders from myself direct. I asked the policemen that were there to go and tell them to go home, that I was going to start the machine gun. I walked out across the corner back of the cabstand and they had gone down — the name of this street, Valier Street ?
Q. And this one Laviolette?
A. Yes, this street. They had gone down that street. So I saw no one in front of me and I got down on the ground myself and saw that the machine gun was traversed as I thought into the brick wall or very close to it, and I got an interpreter to yell at them three or four times that we were going to start the machine gun. There were three or four shots around the corner ; they did not come up into St. Valier Street ; they were just around the corner to the right. So I started the machine gun and stopped it just like that (the witness snaps his fingers).
MR. LAVERGNE : How many rounds?
A. I would judge it ran about three-quarters of the drum, that is, about 36 shots, about 36 shots were fired.
THE CORONER: Did you fire in the crowd?
A. No. I stated I walked up in front of the machine gun myself and I saw there was no one in front of the machine gun before I gave the command to fire. And I stopped it before it ran the whole drum off. I told him to pick it up, unload it and I telephoned back to Headquarters and said that the crowd had dispersed and the best thing, with permission I would fall back to the Boulevard, which I did. And no one followed us down there. I stayed at the Boulevard for some time.
Q. What time was it then ?
A. Oh it was midnight by then or close around midnight. I went into the doctor’s there and used the ’phone a couple of times and he also dressed some of our men for us.
Q. That is, a doctor on St. Joseph Street?
A. St. Valier, yes, St. Joseph, on St. Joseph Street.
Q. Dr Leclerc?
A. Yes, I think that is the man, a big stout doctor. He gave me permission to use his ’phone, and I stayed there for a little while. Things were quiet and I came back down to the Merger Building and they had the Police ambulance which came in the meantime before we moved away from the corner ; in a very short time the police ambulance came and took away the two that were up on the side street. I came back to the Merger and everything was very quiet. I went up myself afterwards.
Q. Everything was over at the time ?
A. Went on up myself afterwards and things were very quiet.
Q. While you were standing at the corner of Bagot and St. Valier Streets did you fire yourself with your revolver?
A. I did.
Q. How many shots?
A. I could not say whether it was four or five shots. I fired across at the other corner.
Q. Towards St. Jude Street?
A. No, across here to where the siphon was, near where that siphon…
Q. Did you fire towards Laviolette Street?
A. Over to the corner.
Q. Where the snipers stood, that is what you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you at the time, the exact position?
A. I was between this corner, St. Valier Street, Bagot Street and the cabstand.
Q. Between east and west side of Bagot Street on the south side?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you unload your revolver when at the Merger?
A. I did not. I would like to explain that. Unload with an automatic which is issued by the Government. It is loaded and it is unloaded. You can put one up in the chamber or you could have your magazine filled and it would be absolutely safe.
MR. LAVERGNE : What kind of a revolver?
A. 45 automatic Government issue. I took one out of the chamber.
THE CORONER : Is that what they call a silent gun?
A. Oh no, very noisy.
MR. LAVERGNE : It would not fire?
A. Oh yes, you can pull it back; you can load your chamber any time.
Q. There was no ammunition in the chamber?
A. No, I don’t think so, to the best of my knowledge. I always did. Whenever I fire I always take one out of the chamber.
THE CORONER : Is that all you have to say?
A. Yes.
Q. You received written orders that evening?
A. Yes sir.
Q. From your commanding officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you state if these written orders were supplemented by verbal orders.
A. They were.
Q. Will you tell the jury what were the verbal orders that you received ?
A. Oh, I cannot give word for word.
THE CORONER : The substance of it.
A. As near as I can remember I was told by every senior officer over me to if possible avoid a clash, but on no account to let a mob gather the same as had gathered the previous evenings.
Q. MR. FITZPATRICK : How did you communicate these written orders and these supplementary verbal orders to the officers and the men under your command ?
A. To the men and to the officers and men, I spoke to them. I had the men and spoke to them in a body, the officers separate from the men and the officers and men together.
Q. I understand that you had on Monday last approximately one thousand men under your command ?
A. Roughly yes.
Q. Are you satisfied that these officers and men when you addressed them and gave them instructions that you received from your superior officers understood you, that each man understood the orders that he was to carry out on that evening ?
A. No.
Q. You are not satisfied ?
A. I would not be satisfied any thousand men would understand me.
Q. Did I understand you to say to me that these verbal orders were communicate to the officers and men under your command ?
A. No.
Q. Make that clear for the jury.
A. The men that I took down there were the men that were part of the militia body, the orders were the man from the Ross Factory that had been here. I spoke to these men. Major Mitchell was in command of the men that came in or had been at the barracks or had been at the immigration shed. I spoke to Major Mitchell, gave him what orders I got, told him to speak to the men. When I say I spoke to the men under my command, I mean the men that I had in my command.
Q. Your immediate command ?
A. Since I came here.
Q. What I want to get at is this : are you satisfied, as officer commanding, that all the officers and men in your command well understood the duties they had to perform that night and were prepared to and did carry out the orders that were received from your commanding officer ?
A. Yes.
Q. You are satisfied ?
A. Since I saw them carried out.
Q. You are satisfied with them ?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you said that the Riot Act had been read ?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it read in your presence ?
A. Yes.
Q. It was. Can you tell us where it was read ?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Can you tell us if the Riot Act was read at the corner of Valier Street and St. Joseph Street ?
A. I cannot.
Q. Can you tell us if the crowd which had congregated at the corner or in the immediate vicinity of St. Valier Street and St. Joseph Street were the same crowd to whom the Riot Act had been read some time before ?
A. No, I could not out of the fog though, I could not recognise anyone at a distance of over fifty feet.
Q. I understand that the casualities that took place on that night were in the immediate vicinity of St. Valier Street, St. Joseph Street and Bagot Street, is that right ?
A. That I could not say.
Q. By referring to the plan ?
A. You mean civilian casualities ?
Q. Yes, the ones I say.
A. Around these streets, Valier Street, Bagot Street.
Q. Right up there ?
A. And here.
Q. At the intersection of all these streets, Bagot, Demers?
A. Here is the one — no, I said there is one only casuality I saw took place.
Q. At the intersection of Bagot, Demers and St. Felixine ?
A. Bagot, Demers and St. Felixine. There was no casuality that I could see up that way here. I saw no casuality in the direction of St. Valier Street.
Q. I presume that your orders were only to fire under the greatest provocation ?
A. They were.
Q. Those were your orders ?
A. Yes.
Q. And those were the orders that were carried out ?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the jury what was the provocation from the crowd which justified one of the officers giving the order to open fire on the crowd ?
A. The shooting of our men.
Q. How many of your men became casualities at the corner of St. Valier Street and Bagot Street where the shooting took place ?
A. There was ― I could not say definitely how many.
Q. About approximately ?
A. If you remember what I said …
Q. Well, I remember it.
A. I came up and met the casualities coming down.
Q. I understand that you were very busy that night ?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us if you are satisfied that those casualities among your men took place in the immediate vicinity of St. Valier Street and St. Joseph Street where your men were confined, can you tell us that ?
A. They were in that neighborhood.
Q. How many casualities had you caused by bullet wounds ?
A. We had five I think all told.
Q. Would you tell us if any physical effort was made to disperse the mob before you opened fire on them ?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell us what that physical effort consisted in ?
A. We sent different parties around different ways. You mean late in the evening before the shooting ?
Q. Yes, immediately before the shooting or at the time of the shooting ?
A. Immediately before the shooting. Yes, there were parties up to two side streets and were told to disperse if they could and at that time ― I might explain it in this way, that early in the evening they would get in mobs, there was no firing, once the firing started they kept backing up from us all the time, they kept backing up, they would not — you could not get near them at all.
Q. I am told that your base was at the intersection of St. Valier, St. Joseph and Bagot Streets near the cabstand, is that right, your base, where your reserves were, is that right ?
A. No, our reserves …
Q. Your reserves in that locality, am I right ?
A. That was, as far as any troops went ; there were no reserves there.
Q. I am informed that the main body of men — perhaps I don’t express myself correctly — I am informed that the main body of men were congregated at the corner of St. Joseph, St. Valier and Bagot Streets, is that right ?
A. No.
Q. And that parties were going out riding from that ?
A. No. Just show me where that is on the map.
Q. I was told that the main body of men were there, that the others were travelling from that direction, is that right ?
A. No, the main body never moved that night.
Q. What I mean is the main body in that locality ?
A. The way I explain that is, the main body was down at the station. Just see if I make this clear to you. The main body was at the station ; the next largest body was out there. This was only a few men, I should judge, roughly between 50 and 75 men were there.
THE CORONER: At that corner ?
A. At that corner.
A. Near the cabstand ?
A. Near the cabstand.
Q. How many on St. Joseph Street ?
A. Down St. Joseph Street, say about roughly between 20 and 30.
MR. LAVERGNE : Mounted or …
A. The mounted were home in the stables before the shooting took place.
MR. FITZPATRICK: You did not give the order to fire ?
A. No.
Q. Do you know the officer who gave the order to fire ?
A. I do.
Q. He was acting on his own account. Give me his name ?
A. Major Mitchell.
Q. You were in the immediate vicinity, were you not ?
A. I was between the Boulevard and there on my way up.
Q. You were faced with the difficulties as well as others, were you not ?
A. Well, what do you mean by difficulties ?
Q. You were not having it all your own way ?
A. Oh no.
Q. So far as your men were concerned you saw no necessity to open fire on the men ?
A. I did.
Q. Did you open fire ?
A. Well, when I say I saw — if I had been there I would have ordered them to open fire.
Q. You would have ordered them ?
A. I would.
Q. These civilian casualities, were they shot by machine gun fire or by individual shots ?
A. They were not shot by machine gun fire.
Q. By isolated shots ?
A. By isolated shots, yes.
Q. Were these men shot at the same time ?
A. No, it was before the machine gun opened.
Q. Were they shot at the same time ?
A. Yes.
Q. Killed by a volley, do you think ?
A. Well, I would not say volley. I don’t think there was a volley.
Q. There was no volley. Just individual shooting, you call it ?
A. No, there was no volleys used at all ; troops are not trained to fire volleys ; individual.
Q. Is it to your knowledge that a boy was shot that night ?
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Do you know under what circumstances he was shot ?
A. Exactly the same as the others at the same time.
Q. You are quite sure of that ?
A. I was up there I should think in less than a minute after the shooting took place. I was right up and it was reported to me that a boy had been taken into one house there.
Q. Was your unit accompanied by stretcher bearer or the medical corps ?
A. The medical corps was there.
Q. Where was it ?
A. It was in the Merger Building.
Q. At the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets was there a stretcher bearer section ?
A. There was not.
Q. What I would like to know is this : is it customary to have a stretcher bearer section with you under these circumstances when you are expecting casualities ?
A. We were not expecting casualities.
Q. You were not expecting casualities ?
A. No, I honestly thought there would not be any.
Q. Did you see a man called Tremblay who was lying in the street and was not unconscious, wounded in the legs and arms ?
A. There was one there that was shot through the abdomen, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. Not he, one man shot in the leg, I think, and in the arm and he was conscious. Do you remember seeing him ?
A. No.
Q. You don’t remember ?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you know if any medical aid was given the men ?
A. Yes.
Q. How long after they were shot ?
A. I came right back, went into the telephone booth, telephoned Headquarters and it was a very short while before the ambulance came around the corner, the first one was the police, I think, I am not positive.
Q. Was there any firing to your knowledge in the windows of houses, private residences ?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Not to your knowledge ?
A. No, it was reported to me that there was not.
Q. Is it to your knowledge that there was firing ?
A. Yes.
Q. will you tell me under what circumstances they fired into the windows of houses ?
A. Into the windows of houses, no, there was not.
Q. The troops fired ?
A. No, absolutely none.
Q. What is what I want to get ?
A. No.
Q. I understand you to say that the troops did not fire into the windows of any houses ?
A. No, to the best of my knowledge they did not.
Q. You told us that you had blown your whistle ordering cease fire ?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this order carried out immediately ?
A. It was.
Q. Immediately ?
A. Immediately.
Q. You are satisfied that all your men ceased firing when the order was given to cease firing ?
A. They ceased firing when I blew my whistle.
Q. Anybody fire shots after the order was given to cease firing ?
A. Yes, I sent men to do so.
Q. That was your order ?
A. Yes, right at that time.
Q. That order cease firing was given them. The men ceased firing ?
A. They ceased firing.
Q. At what time was that ?
A. I don’t know. It was between eleven and twelve ; and that firing took place…
Q. Any firing that took place after that was done under orders ?
A. Under orders, individual.
Q. Individual ?
A. Individual firing.
THE CORONER : After twelve ?
A. No, after 11.30.
Q. If there had been after 11.30 any firing ?
A. It was individual firing either by an officer or by a N. C. O. on a direct order from me.
MR. FITZPATRICK : To finish. Are you satisfied that the orders of your superior officers were carried out by every officer and man under your command that night ?
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Had you occasion to reprimand any officer or man in your command for his conduct that night?
A. Not for his conduct no.
Q. What do you mean by your answer ?
A. They were asking when they were to shoot when Johnstone was shot at. I don’t know the officer who said, when are you going to let us open fire. I said, never, if we can hinder it. I said, don’t be too anxious at all. He said very well. And I walked off. Those are the only words I had with any officer.
Q. Did the privates, for instances, carry out the orders that were given to them ; are you satisfied with them ?
A. They certainly did, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. To the best of your knowledge ?
A. Yes.
THE CORONER : How many men had you wounded at the Boulevard ?
A. I could not say definitely.
Q. Wounded by bullets ?
A. I could not say definitely because I don't know.
Q. Had you any of them ?
A. At that time I did not know where the Boulevard was. It was between there and up at the other corner.
Q. How many had you at the corner of Valier Street and the cabstand ?
A. We had not a man wounded there.
Q. Not a man ?
A. Not a man.
Q. When they started fire you were not there ?
A. That is, at that corner ?
Q. At the corner of St. Valier, St. Joseph Streets and the cabstand ?
A. I was not.
Q. Do you know if the Riot Act was read there ?
A. I don't.
Q. You saw two of the victims around that corner of Demers and Bagot Streets that were shot there, these two that were shot ?
A. Yes I saw them.
Q. Do you know if any civilians went near them after they were shot ?
A. I don’t know.
Q. At that time was there still a big crowd of people ?
A. No, the crowd had disappeared.
Q. The streets were cleared, nobody…
A. The streets were cleared. There were some men higher up shooting then.
Q. Did you see some of them ?
A. I did not ; it was too far up.
Q. You were told ?
A. I heard them.
Q. But you did not see them ?
A. I could not see over fifty feet, very heavy fog.
EXAMINED BY MR. LAVERGNE.
Q. You have been in Quebec how long ?
A. I came in on the 17th of February.
Q. I see by your coat of arms that you have been at the front and wounded. How long have you been at the front ?
A. I went with the first contingent and was one of the first Canadian officers home wounded in Quebec I think on the first of June 1916.
Q. You told us that you had about 1180 men that night in your command ?
A. Yes.
Q. Including the Royal Canadian Dragoons, 100 men. Who was in command of these Dragoons ?
A. That was the order, one hundred men, Royal Canadian Dragoons ; but they only had fifty horses. Therefore there were only fifty of them. To be correct I think they had 48 because I took one of their horses and they had a lame horse.
Q. Who was in command ?
A. Arnoldy.
Q. Royal Canadian Engineers ?
A. Royal Canadian Engineers were commanded by Major Keiffer.
Q. Centre Ontario Regiment ?
A. Well, in command of me direct.
Q. You had command of the whole party ?
A. Some of the Centre Ontario Regiment that came down on Sunday in command of Major Mitchell.
Q. And the machine gun company, you had two machine gun companies ?
A. Well, no, it was just, it was not a company, it was a hundred men and ten guns.
Q. Ten machine guns ?
A. Yes.
Q. You told Mr. Fitzpatrick that you had some verbal orders to supplement the written orders which were given to you ?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say who gave you your verbal orders ?
A. General Landry and Col. O’Meara and I am not sure whether the A.G. was there or not, Col. Ackland.
Q. Major General Lessard ?
A. No, Major General Lessard was not there.
Q. When was the ammunition supplied to the men ?
A. I drew it out of the stores on that afternoon and it was issued by my quartermaster to the companies.
Q. All of the men were armed with riffles and the mounted troops with sabres ?
A. The mounted troops had sabres.
Q. How many rounds were issued to each man ?
A. Twenty-four rounds, four clips.
Q. Before you left ?
A. Yes.
Q. I suppose you had a board about the use of ammunition afterwards ?
A. Not yet ; we have not turned it in.
Q. You don’t know how many rounds were used ?
A. Not exactly, no.
Q. Do you know it approximately ?
A. No. Well, I know about how many, roughly myself, how many shots were fired. I should judge that would be roughly one hundred shots fired, that is, not counting 36 with the machine gun.
Q. About 136, maybe 200 ?
A. Maybe 200.
Q. When will the board going to take place ?
A. Well, when we are called off the course.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. You see we use ammunition on the different courses : danger building and the Fort Levis and the other points here at the Arsenal.
Q. But there has been no board yet on the use of ammunition that night ?
A. No, not yet.
Q. So all your figures are roughly speaking ?
A. Yes, roughly speaking.
Q. You said that interpreters were attached to your company ?
A. Yes.
Q. To your force ?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they civilians or military ?
A. They were militia.
Q. Military ?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that some of your own men can speak French ?
A. Yes.
Q. French Canadian or English speaking Canadians ?
A. I should think that they are French Canadian, some of them ; I did not know they could. We asked if there were any men who can speak French. They said yes there were, three or four stepped out of the platoon. I don’t know whether they are French Canadian or not.
Q. Anyway you are satisfied that they do speak French ?
A. Oh yes.
Q. You also had other interpreters attached to your superior command ?
A. Yes, there were others.
Q. Do you know their names ?
A. There is an officer of the second battalion that lived here in Quebec.
Q. Second heavy battalion ?
A. Second overseas battalion. Captain… I cannot remember his name. He lives up the street here.
Q. Montminy ?
A. I think that was the name. He was with me all that evening and four or five other officers.
Q. Of Quebec ?
A. Of Quebec, mostly returned officers.
Q. These troops that night, were they conscripts or troops which had been under fire before ?
A. We don’t call them conscripts in Ontario. We call them military service act men.
Q. That is what I mean. Any of the troops that had seen service before ?
A. No. Some of the N. C. O’s and the officers had seen service, but none of the men ; they were all brought in under the military service act, to the best of my knowledge ; there might be one here and there would come in as a volunteer.
Q. When you got down to the Jacques Cartier Square it was about seven o’clock ?
A. Roughly yes.
Q. Was there any gathering there at all ?
A. Very little.
Q. Very little ?
A. Very little.
Q. You placed your men on the square ?
A. I placed them.
Q. The main body on the square ?
A. Not on the square, on the side streets.
Q. You sent patrols…
A. I just started out patrols, then cavalry.
Q. How big patrols ?
A. There were down forty strong. They split in two. That would make them oh roughly 25.
Q. Walking up and down the street ?
A. Yes.
Q. Asking the people to disperse ?
A. Just to disperse.
Q. Were you instructing covering a crowd of three or twelve ?
A. No, I was told to use common sense as much as possible.
Q. I know you have got a great supply.
A. Thank you. If we saw two or three talking, I told them, I said, don’t bother them ; If you see seven or eight young fellows and they are nasty, why I said go up and ask them to move on.
Q. Did you have any trouble at first ?
A. Very little, at all right there at the square, no further we did not go, I should not think one hundred yards.
Q. I mean in the square then ?
A. Right at the square no.
Q. No trouble at all ?
A. No. They asked if there were a crowd to disperse and they dispersed.
Q. So the trouble began further up near the Boulevard ?
A. Well, this party coming around the square on the side streets ; of course, they could not get on the square.
Q. The square was …
A. They could… we let all traffic go, we did not interfere with traffic at all.
Q. You mean traffic…
A. Foot traffic and the cars were running.
Q. Cars and carriages ?
A. Yes, carriages and also people walking on the sidewalk.
Q. Whilst I think of it. When you left the Headquarters or wherever you left, your barracks, to when you got to the square, were any civil magistrates supplied to you to take command of the troops in accordance with the King’s Regulations ?
A. I looked around for some, I could not find any.
Q. None were given to you by superior authority either ?
A. No magistrates no.
Q. And these patrols and detachments which were under your command, you are satisfied there were none with them either ?
A. No, there were no magistrate.
Q. I forgot whether you told the Court when the firing began your men had been stoned, aimed and fired at for some time?
A. Well, I think the first one hit was about eight o’clock.
Q. Whereabout was that ?
A. It was not far from the Square, it would not be far from the Square.
Q. Had you designated the officer to command fire ?
A. I had, the senior officers.
Q. The senior officers ?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not give control of the firing to a special officer ?
A. Oh no because they were broken up.
Q. You did not warn the men that this one officer would have control of the firing ?
A. No, no one officer could control the firing that night down there.
Q. Probably not.
A. No. What I mean : you know as well as I do that they were broken up. I was there and I could not be with them all or any officer I detailed.
Q. You understand at the same time, if I read the regulations right, that one officer has to have control of the firing to be designated in advance ?
A. For that body. Well, there was one officer for each body designated to be in charge of the firing.
Q. You told us that Major Mitchell ordered the firing ?
A. Yes.
Q. The Riot Act was read at what hour ?
A. As near as I can think, around between 9 and 9.30.
Q. Who read it ?
A. Captain Heighton, to my knowledge, read it.
Q. Who read it in French ?
A. I think Captain Heighten.
Q. He speaks French fluently ?
A. I would not say fluently because I don’t know.
Q. Enough to make himself understood ?
A. Oh yes he can make himself understood.
Q. Where was it read ?
A. Well, I cannot say.
Q. You were not there yourself ?
A. I was on the street.
Q. You don’t know exactly where ?
A. I don’t know exactly where.
Q. Was it on the Square ?
A. It was not on the Square.
Q. Was the crowd very numerous ?
A. Yes, there was a big crowd.
Q. Standing in the street ?
A. Down the side street the street was practically blocked.
Q. It was read about 9 or 9.30 you say ?
A. I think it was around that.
Q. What time was it that Major Mitchell ordered firing ?
A. Around eleven o’clock.
Q. When did he start ?
A. It started at the Boulevard. I think there were a couple of shots fired there. He did not order — the order to fire was : we had picked out different men, we did not want them all to fire.
Q. The fog was very thick ?
A. It was getting pretty thick.
Q. When Major Mitchell ordered fire could he see the crowd there ?
A. Oh yes, the lights were pretty strong there on the Boulevard.
Q. You are satisfied that he could see the crowd very well ?
A. Well, no, I could not say that he could see them very well.
Q. Could he see there was a crowd or some individuals around there ?
A. It was he that was doing the seeing. I could not say.
Q. You were not there ?
A. No, I was not there.
Q. How far were you from there ?
A. I was not very far, between there and the railway building.
Q. You walked up to him after you heard the firing or he reported it to you ?
A. I went up as soon as I heard firing.
Q. Did he say why he had ordered the firing ?
A. Yes.
Q. Why, what was the reason ?
A. Because they had quite a lot of shots fired at them.
Q. Did he tell you how many ?
A. No.
Q. Any casualties ?
A. Yes.
Q. That point ?
A. They had casualties.
Q. Immediately before ?
A. Immediately before opening fire we had no casualty.
THE CORONER : What kind of casualty ?
A. A man hit in the jaw, another one in the leg, another one in the head.
MR. LAVERGNE : Were they hit there ? That is precisely what I want ? Were the man who was hit in the jaw and the man that was hit in the leg and the man that was hit in the head, do you say, were they hit immediately or a very short time before the firing took place ?
A. I cannot say. I was in the railway building. I was there when one boy was hit and ⁁had the jaw broken and I met that one coming down the street with his jaw tied up and I met another one…
Q. That would be early in the evening ?
A. Well, the man hit in the head, there would be quite a little distance between…
Q. What I want to know is whether Major Mitchell told you that immediately before the firing he had some…
A. He had not.
Q. … immediate casualty. He did not tell you ?
A. No.
Q. He did not state exactly the reason why he had suddenly ordered firing after standing it patiently all night ?
A. Yes, he was fired at quite heavy.
Q. He did not report any casualties ?
A. No.
Q. How long did the firing last ?
A. Well…
Q. How many rounds were there ?
A. When you say firing. I kept up on the corner there watching for a sniper for ten minutes.
Q. This is not what I mean.
A. It was just I should judge about ten, fifteen seconds.
Q. Do you know what instructions Major Mitchell gave to his men : just to fire or fire a certain amount of rounds or fire a volley ?
A. I don’t.
Q. Major Mitchell would know ?
A. Yes, he would.
Q. Then you saw a boy lying on the street ?
A. I did not.
Q. You did not see the boy ?
A. I did not see the boy.
Q. You heard ?
A. I heard there had been a boy wounded and taken into a house.
Q. You don’t know who picked him up ?
A. I don’t.
Q. Was there any report that the men who picked him up were drunk, any report to you ?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether Major Mitchell fired at a crowd or at individuals ? Probably you don’t know.
A. You could not for the fog tell what he was firing at.
Q. Do you know if any firing was done without orders ?
A. To the best of my knowledge there was not a shot fired without orders.
Q. To the best of your knowledge. Of course Major Mitchell would know probably better than you know ?
A. No, he would not because I was around more than he was that night.
Q. When the firing took place, you don’t know how it was fired or the exact order ?
A. I got there just as the order cease fire was given. I could not be farther than the width of this room away.
Q. When he gave the order cease fire — you could see the men firing ?
A. Yes. There is no collective firing at all, they are not taught to fire collectively.
Q. I understand that, in actual warfare. In a thing of that description the moral effect, might do just as well ?
A. That is why I had started the gun, moral effect.
Q. The gun you said was aimed at what ?
A. Our gun, the machine-gun ?
Q. Yes.
A. To the building.
Q. What building ?
A. Back of the cabstand.
Q. How high was it ?
A. Well, I got down myself …
Q. On the tripod ?
A. It was a little tripod ; I think it would hit about that high, a couple of feet.
THE CORONER : Three feet ?
A. Not Three.
MR. LAVERGNE : From the box. How was the tripod fixed ?
A. The tripod just stands on the ground.
Q. Very flat ?
A. Very flat. You see the tripod is stationary and it works on the tripod.
Q. The tripod can be flattened, can it not ?
A. Just sits down, just goes out to the full extent.
Q. You fired about 36 …
A. About 36; there are 48 in a chamber.
Q. At the building ?
A. At the building.
Q. Satisfied that there was not anybody in front of it ?
A. I walked up immediately afterwards. I walked up immediately before and I walked up immediately afterwards.
Q. As far as the building ?
A. As far as the building.
Q. You felt satisfied that everything was over ?
A. I felt satisfied that everything was over and reported so to Headquarters.
Q. How did you come to that conclusion ?
A. Because I walked up the street, saw different parties around and things were very quiet.
Q. So you fell back to the Boulevard ?
A. To the Boulevard.
Q. This question is just for my information, not offering blame or any criticism of your tactics. Don’t you think that probably it might have been something — going farther to see whether you could gather in these rioters or the men that had fired ?
A. No, the fog was — I discussed that with Major Mitchell and we came to the conclusion, the fog was getting too thick and the Boulevard would be the best place, where they could see under the lights and we could see them, and I dropped back to the Boulevard.
Q. Was there any looting done that night to your knowledge ?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. It did not come to your knowledge or been reported to you by any of your officers or N. C. O’s. that soldiers had taken liquor out of the stores ?
A. No.
Q. Before all the trouble started, when you got to the Place Jacques Cartier your men — or if not your men you will tell me — rounded up certain people in clubs or pool rooms ?
A. No, I took the men out of the pool rooms myself. When I went past that pool room it was in absolute darkness.
Q. How late was that ?
A. That would be after eleven o’clock.
Q. I mean much earlier in the evening ?
A. Oh no I asked the pool room to close ; never took a man out of the pool room.
Q. You asked the pool room…
A. There was a pool room back at the railway building which was filled up with young men and there was quite a crowd in there, the back pool room. So I went in and asked the man if he would kindly close at 9.30. And he said he would at 9.30. And no one said another word to him. The blinds were left up, lights on and the place was closed up. That was at 9.00 o’clock I went in there. At 9.00 asked him if he would close at 9.30. Lest him finish any games that were going on. I said certainly. He said he would close at 9.30.
Q. Did not you or somebody ask the man not to let the people out, keep them there ?
A. No. I went in myself and asked — no other conversation with him.
Q. Did you go to Hallé’s St. Sauveur, pool room called Hallé’s at St. Sauveur on St. Valier Street ?
A. No.
Q. Corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets.
THE CORONER : That is the one you went into ?
A. I never went there. That is where I took the men out when we were going back.
MR LAVERGNE : You don’t know if anybody went there early in the evening ?
A. No.
Q. Told them not to let the people out ?
A. No.
Q. That they would be struck by the soldiers. Do you know a place called the Club National ?
A. That is the back pool room behind the bowling room behind the railway building ?
Q. I think that is it.
A. That is the place.
Q. That is where you went ?
A. That is where I went myself.
JUROR LEVASSEUR : You said that an officer asked you when you would permit them to open fire ?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please give the name of that officer ?
A. No, I cannot. No I don’t think I can. I can find out.
Q. Is it because you are not permitted to ?
A. No, I cannot. I would be permitted.
Q. You don’t remember ?
A. I can ask him who was the officer, ask him. And they will tell me.
Q. Did he seem anxious to open firing ?
A. No, he was not ; he did not seem anxious. I have never seen any troops or men acting better under fire in France than they did that night.
MR. CHAPLEAU : That is the officer that reported to you that one of his men had been hit ?
A. No, that is another one.
THE CORONER : Juror Picher asks if the machine gun you used at the corner of the Boulevard is the same gun that you generally use in war ?
A. It is the same pattern of gun, Lewis gun, it is not the Colt. There are three or four patterns used at the Front. This is one of them.
JUROR LEVASSEUR : If I understand you said you fired four or five shots yourself with a revolver ?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the object ?
A. When I was going to the cabstand there was a report of five or six shots fired around the corner of St. Valier Street and Laviolette Street. The men did not fire. I was the only one fired in that direction.
Q. There had been shots fired by the rioters ?
A. Oh yes.
MR CHAPLEAU: From that direction ?
A. From that direction.
JUROR MONAGHAN: You said that the shots were fired about five feet against that brick wall at Bagot Street ?
A. You misunderstood me. I said two feet, between two and three feet.
Q. Just in the rear there is a hangar and a house occupied by three ladies, the Vezina family, and the lady stated to me that there were 25 shots fired through her house and it is just as high as this ceiling. Would they have been done by the machine gun or by rifles ?
A. No, machine gun will either go all in straight line or it will be in a bunch, it would be an absolutely straight line.
Q. Then it was with rifles that this place was shelled ?
A. It must have been.
MR. LAVERGNE : Was the machine gun fanned ?
A. No.
JUROR MONAGHAN : There are three old ladies in the house and an old gentleman. We examined the case. We saw the damage that was done to the windows and the doors.
A. Might I ask a question ? Do you mind telling me if these bullets were in a straight line or in a straight row ? Then I can tell you whether it was done by the machine gun.
Q. Where the kiosk is situated or cabstand ; just directly opposite ?
THE CORONER : Are you speaking of the Vezina house ?
JUROR MONAGHAN : Yes.
THE CORONER : I will show him where it is. Here. You were standing there and the Vezina house is right here on Sauvageau Street.
WITNESS: There were done with rifle fire. This is where the machine gun stood, just about there, at the corner of Bagot and St. Valier Street. I will mark where that machine gun was if you like.
EXAMINED BY MR. BARCLAY.
Q. There is the house that Mr. Monaghan means there and that is where you fired the gun ?
A. I can show exactly where that machine gun stood adjusted, completed. I should judge that is it. I thought I was getting the corner of that building. I understand it went up the side of the building.
(Witness marks on the map where the machine gun stood the words Machine Gun).
Q. You spoke of ten machine guns. How many were out in the street that night ?
A. They took them up as far as the Square.
Q. Were any of the others fired ?
A. No, there was not.
Q. Now you state that you yourself sighted the machine gun at the spot indicated on the map here at the corner of St. Joseph Street and St. Valier Street ?
A. Yes.
Q. And you sighted the machine gun yourself.
Q. Where did you fire from there ?
A. I thought I was getting that corner opposite. Instead of that I was getting …
Q. Before firing the gun you went and examined the place at which you had it pointing ?
A. Well, yes.
Q. Was there anybody there ?
A. There was not.
Q. Did you go there again after firing ?
A. I walked up the street a little ways after firing.
Q. Was there anybody there ?
A. There was not.
Q. So that there were no casualties from the machine gun ?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Mr. Monaghan spoke of a house which is marked with a circle ?
A. Yes.
Q. As belonging to the Vezina ?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the place you spoke of when you spoke of the sniping from the roofs of houses in that direction ?
A. No.
Q. Where was it that you meant ?
A. Over the cabstand.
Q. Were any shots fired from the direction of Vezina’s house ?
A. That is where the shots came from, that direction.
Q. They came from that direction ?
A. At the start.
Q. At the start ?
A. They came down that street, Bagot Street, and right over on the other Laviolette.
Q. So that instead of firing in the streets you fire at the top of a house, is that what I understand from the location that Mr Monaghan saw those shots ?
A. No, not there.
Q. That is what I want to get at. How do you explain the shots at Vezina’s house about which Mr Monaghan spoke ?
A. I explain it this way : that the man could not see very well what they were shooting at and a man standing up, very little difference in the elevation, by the time he goes that distance, makes an awful lot of difference where the bullet hits.
MR. LAVERGNE : How big a distance, how many yards ?
A. I should judge from the map that house would be…
THE CORONER : About two acres.
WITNESS : I should judge 400 yards from that spot to the house, between four and five hundred yards.
Q. Not four hundred ?
A. Roughly.
Q. There is about two hundred yards ?
A. I don’t know. I have not seen the place.
MR. LAVERGNE : From the map. Is there a scale on the map ?
A. No, there is no scale.
MR. BARCLAY : About 135 feet.
Q. In your movements around town from one place to another, were your troops followed by a crowd ?
A. You mean down there or when we were going down ?
Q. Moving from the Square, when you left the Square, was there still a crowd around your troops ?
A. Oh yes.
Q. Right up to the time of the firing ?
A. No, up till about ten o’clock the crowd were in around all over. Once the firing started the crowd got away.
Q. Which firing are you speak of now ?
A. Their firing.
Q. They got in front of you and kept in front ?
A. They kept, the people, the spectators which were a big percentage I think early in the evening, when their firing started, kept off the street ; they backed as near as I could explain it out towards the Boulevard.
Q. Do you know anything about the ammunition ? What kind of ammunition was issued to the men ?
A. Yes, 303 Government ammunition.
Q. Regular Government issue ?
A. Regular Government ammunition.
Q. Was it inspected ?
A. It was.
Q. By whom ?
A. I opened the box myself ; it was sealed. When I say I opened the box, it was brought out and put under my desk in the orderly room. I broke the seal and was there when the others were and took the lid off.
MR. LAVERGNE : The pouches were inspected before ?
A. Yes.
Q. Under your command ?
A. Under my command, yes.
Q. Found empty ?
A. Found empty.
Q. MR. BARCLAY : Do you know of any other ammunition having been furnished to the men ?
A. None.
Q. Do you know anything about a distribution which took place at Cantin’s shop on Dorchester Street ?
THE CORONER : That is the next street to the Market Jacques Cartier going up.
WITNESS : Going up the hill, no, I don’t.
MR. BARCLAY : You don’t know about that ?
A. No, I did not go up that way, at least I was not up there at the time. What I know about it is hearsay.
Q. Well, do you know whether that took place before or after the reading of the Riot Act ?
A. I don’t.
JUROR LEVASSEUR : Can you tell us if amongst the soldiers who did the shooting — if these men were used to a gun or if it was the first time they were shooting with a gun ?
A. All of the men that I know of had all fired on the ranges before.
Q. All of these ?
A. All I know personally. These men that were under some of the others, I would not say. But I mean, the men that I brought here with me all had fired ; they had followed a course of musketry over the ranges.
Q. Were these men at the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets ?
A. These men were at the corner of St. Valier and St. Joseph Streets.
Q. So, these men are the ones that shot that night ?
A. No, I don’t know. Some of the others shot that I did not bring down with me. I don’t know what musketry they had after I left.
Q. Some of the men that had shot ?
A. Some of the men under Captain Rothry.
Q. These men had not been under a course ?
A. Oh yes, some of the men. I don’t know about the others.
MR. BARCLAY : He is asking you if there were some men who never had any course ?
A. I could not say.
JUROR SCOTT : Are you accustomed to the use of a machine gun ?
A. I am.
Q. What was your object in using that machine gun ?
A. Moral effect.
Q. To frighten them ?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not intend to kill anybody ?
A. I did not.
Q. Have you served in France ?
A. I have.
Q. Long ?
A. I have been in Khaki since the war broke out.
Q. What battle have you been in ?
A. I was wounded at Fleurbaix and the second battle of Ypres.
MR. LAVERGNE : When ammunition is used it is customary, is it not, to have an inspection and report made immediately after the men return to barracks ?
A. Yes.
Q. That was not done ?
A. It was. I have it collected, reported to me at once as soon as it comes in.
Q. So you know exactly how many …
A. Not the number, but I had every one collected and the ammunition pouches examined to see if there was any ammunition left.
Q. You cannot figure how many were used exactly ?
A. I could not figure exactly how many were used, but it was collected, put back in the boxes again and put up into the orderly room.
Q. When did the men load their rifles ?
A. They did not load them until just before firing.
Q. You are quite sure ?
A. My orders were not one to load his rifle until ordered to do so by senior officer.
Q. Just load and fire ?
A. Just load and fire.
Q. There was no interval between the loading and the firing, no lapse of time ?
A. Very little.
Q. Because the loading makes a certain amount of noise, would it not? a certain click of the rifle ?
A. Oh no, just make one click, the magazine, just the same as opening the bolt.
Q. That might be enough to scare the rioters ?
A. No, I did it before down there.
Q. Moving the magazine ?
A. Yes.
Q. You said there were about ten machine guns ?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if the others were fired at all ?
A. They were not fired.
Q. You are quite positive of that ?
A. Yes.
Q. Quite positive, to your personal knowledge ?
A. To my personal knowledge they were not fired that night.
Q. You told me that the machine gun had about two feet of elevation ?
A. Yes.
Q. In a trajectory of 135 or 150 feet how would you cock it that it might hit the top of the building ?
A. It was not fired up that street that he asked me — It is not the way to answer a question, Mr Lavergne, but he asked me about coming in the house. Well, I showed you these were the gun fire, not machine gun.
THE CORONER : These shots up in the house were rifle shots ?
A. Yes, these were rifle shots.
Q. Did you see the marks on the house ?
A. No.
Q. You have not seen them ?
A. No, I have not.
MR. LAVERGNE : You are positive that the machine gun was not horizontally fanned when it was fired ?
A. No.
Q. It would very likely make a very big hole, one big hole ?
A. Fairly ; 36 shots would not make a very big hole.
Q. It should go into the same hole ?
A. No, they wont.
MR. BARCLAY : How many shots will a machine gun fire per minute ?
A. Up to 750, the Lewis gun, that is what they will fire.
Q. So that actually to fire 36 shots means the gun just to have been started and stopped ?
A. Practically.
MR. LAVERGNE : You did not hear any other reports of a machine gun being fired ?
A. I did not.
Q. You would know it, of course ?
A. I would know it ; it would have been reported to me.
JUROR LAROCHE : In the machine gun did you place regular cartridges both times ?
A. You cannot use a machine gun unless it is live ammunition.
Q. All loaded ammunition ?
A. All loaded ammunition. I might explain for the jury that it is the explosion that works the lever. Therefore you cannot use anything but live ammunition in a machine gun.
I certify the foregoing to be a true and correct transcript of my shorthand notes.
- ↑ Titre ajouté par Wikisource pour fin de présentation.